Transcript: The Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal Case, with Maria McCloskey
Host: Jen Ang
Maria McCloskey
“Having the council admit in open court that they’ve breached a legal requirement, you know, I think it it’s huge…
“the importance of holding governments and, um you know, public authorities to account using the law, … I always think it shouldn’t have to be up to small community organisations to make sure that public authorities are doing what they should do. But that’s the world in which we live.”
Jen Ang
Hello and welcome to the Lawmanity podcast, where we explore the complex relationship between law and activism and discuss the different ways that law can oppress people but can also lead to real social change.
I’m Jen Ang, a human rights lawyer and activist based in Scotland and your host on the Lawmanity podcast.
This week, we’re speaking to human rights lawyer, activist and legend, Maria McCloskey how she and the Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal campaign (Or SWOT Campaign) brought a legal challenge that halted plans to develop a major fossil fuel terminal being developed directly offshore a beautiful, and sleepy seaside town (in Mid and East Antrim)near Belfast, in Northern Ireland.
Maria is an experienced human rights solicitor who holds a master’s degree in human rights law from Queen’s University, Belfast, and has substantial experience both in private practice as well as at the Children’s Law Centre in Belfast, where she represented unaccompanied asylum-seeking children.
She then headed Public Interest Litigation Support as Director Solicitor from 2022 to 2024, where she was the instructing solicitor in the Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal or SWOT campaign case that we will be discussing today.
This year, she’s taken her work global by stepping into her new role as Executive Director of Irish Rule of Law International. Irish Rule of Law International is an all-island non-profit that promotes and supports the development of rule of law systems across the world.
The organization does this with the support of judges, lawyers and other justice sector experts from both jurisdictions in Ireland who provide their time, skills and expertise on a pro bono basis to support the mission.
So welcome Maria to the podcast. I’m so excited to have you here.
04:08.01
Maria McCloskey
Thank you, Jen. It’s lovely to see you and it’s I’m delighted to have been invited on. So I look forward to our discussion.
04:16.10
Jen Ang
Brilliant. So do I. Now, I like to start this podcast with kind of a surprise opener question to get us settled and just to learn a bit more about the people behind the legends we’re interviewing. A good friend of mine pointed out to me that our sense of smell is one of our oldest senses and that we can actually hold deep connections between the sense of smell and our memories.
So if you don’t mind, please can you tell me about a smell that’s meaningful to you, maybe something you really like or something that’s connected to a place or time that you’d like to bring to mind?
04:47.25
Maria McCloskey
Yeah, I love that question. It’s definitely unique one. So I think a sense of smell that always brings back a lot of memories and sort of evokes certain emotions is the smell of freshly cut grass. and So I am a country girl. I grew up and ah outside a small village in County Derry. My dad’s a farmer.
And i think that the smell of fresh cut grass kind of brings me back to my childhood. It’s one of those smells that makes me feel good inside. I don’t know why, but i think there are others who would say that they love that smell as well. It sort of reminds me of um just the sort of the start of spring or we’re getting into spring. And when I was at school, it was also a sign that the summer holidays were coming or weren’t too far away. So it evokes a lot of positive emotions in me. And I think that given the topic that we’re discussing today and climate justice in general, I think it fits very well with with that whole theme.
05:52.33
Jen Ang
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. And actually, when you describe that, I can almost picture um yeah spring around the corner, sort of younger you um in a quieter and maybe um maybe simpler time. um But i I think you’re right. A lot of people have spoken about and smells from nature and also um something that conjures to mind a counterbalance to maybe the the busy kind of um workaday world that ah that human rights lawyers and activists often sit in. So thank you for sharing that. And I will now turn to Today’s main topic, which is about helping listeners understand how you and colleagues used the law to achieve significant change um in your successful legal challenge in the Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal case.
06:40.23
Jen Ang
So I wanted to start by um understanding better your work with the campaign, and then we’ll move on to maybe your reflections about um what you accomplished and what still needs to be done. And just about one year on now, as I understand it from that legal challenge.
So to start with, um can you explain to us how you got involved with the campaign, um what it was about and what was at stake that made you think that legal action was going to be the answer?
07:07.30
Maria McCloskey
Okay, so as you have mentioned just in your opening about my background at at the time, I was working with a small NGO in Belfast called Public Interest Litigation Support.
07:18.81
Maria McCloskey
um And I suppose from um ah very, very small organization, I’m trying to address and support cases which are in the public interest across the broad spectrum of human rights and equality issues there had been for you know the the few years that the organization was in existence of a certain focus on the big the big issues in Northern Ireland and that residents and and citizens and people living in Northern Ireland have faced in the last decade or so and they were largely probably
06:52.24
Maria McCloskey
um around issues like the the Troubles cases coming out of the Troubles and issues affected by our troubled past so things like housing, education, social welfare those issues and so those cases those cases tended to be the cases that we were providing our support where we could but we are you know PILS is an organisation which supports that broad range of human rights and equality issues and I think there had been a growing appreciation even before I joined the organisation, but certainly when I joined and when we started to work more closely with some of our members, that um environmental and climate justice is is key to and the future.
07:15 .00
Maria McCloskey
I mean, if we don’t have, if we don’t protect the planet, which we have, and we don’t protect the resources and um the environment that we all share, we won’t have issues like housing and and those sorts of things that that that require our attention. So I think that it’s one of the areas of law that people appreciate more and more connects with so many other areas of law.
09:51.60
Maria McCloskey
And so when then an organisation did come to us and say, we would like your, you know, your support, we have a potential legal challenge and we don’t have a solicitor. it was a great outcome of the work that we had done to try and attract this.
10:07.15
Maria McCloskey
But it was really asking us then to step into that space and and provide the solicitor representation, because this particular organisation, Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal, didn’t have the resources, didn’t have a solicitor on board.
10:20.38
Maria McCloskey
but were very much up against the clock in terms of the challenge that they wanted to take. And so a little bit of a you know a scary moment, I suppose, for me as the only solicitor in the organisation to say, yes, we will represent you.
Jen Ang
So let’s take a moment to discuss who the Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal campaign are, and what they were challenging when they approached Maria and the PILS Project for help.
Here’s some recent news coverage from ITV News
Daniel Duffy, ITV News
Whitehead is a sleepy seaside town in County xx but it may not be sleepy for long as a new oil terminal development has been proposed .. and campaigners are concerned about the impact it may have on the town.
Clodagh Miskelly
We’re talking about huge impacts in terms of climate change, huge emissions from this …85,5 million tonnes of carbon.
Daniel Duffy
At the weekend, Whitehead is full of tourists, with many campervans pitching up in the area to take in the sea views, and enjoy water sports like swimming and sailnig. Some residents say that the development could put an end to all that.
Dorothy Whittingston
We are a town that is based in the tourist economy. And I worry very much that this development will have an impact on that. That we could turn into one of the typical small towns , with the closed shops, with the deteriorating centre, with the lack of activities for its residents and others to participate in.
Jen Ang
So at the time the SWOT campaigners came to PILS for help, they were looking for a way to legally challenge the council’s decision to approve a planning application for the development of this oil terminal.
Maria goes on to list some of the many challenges the legal team and the campaign faced in getting their case off the ground.
15:31.16
Maria McCloskey
another challenge I suppose being in this space is that you know often you’re talking about small teams of and I’m speaking personally here, relatively inexperienced um ah you know lawyers and and that’s just, it was a challenge I think probably for me personally, but also appreciating this is what we’re here to do. We’re here to provide the support.
16:10.60
Maria McCloskey
I’ve got the skills, the knowledge, the qualification of being a lawyer. I might not know this area of law in and out, but with the help of the likes of the pro bono lawyers, with the team at PILS who worked night and day at times to get this ready.
16:25.96
Maria McCloskey
that it is a challenge that can be overcome provided again you’re realistic about it and um the great thing about being in in this space in the human rights space is there’s very much a well we’ll all pull together and we’ll make it happen
19:40.68
Maria McCloskey
The local residents, the people involved in the campaign the organisation itself, they had been working for a number of years.
19:51.57
Maria McCloskey
I mean, ever since this proposal was sort of, um or the the planning application was submitted, they were trying and succeeding, in my view, in getting together and and making those freedom of information requests and looking at the relevant laws or what might be relevant, to looking at what the…
20:09.54
Maria McCloskey
the the company had submitted and all of those things to there was a little a huge amount of work went on before we became involved and Geraint and Clodagh who we worked with very closely at PILS, I just want to commend them on their commitment and I think that it came at the expense of you know their own personal time, this these are volunteers as they often are with you know local community campaigns, people who have full-time jobs and and other commitments who are doing this kind of thing in the evening and at the weekends
20:43.77
Maria McCloskey
you know to to no personal benefit or gain really it’s about the community in which they live and wanting to protect that environment so I mean I’m still in such to admiration of of them their their commitment to this cause um uh so yeah a huge amount of work went on in the background and before we moved. The importance of community in holding their elected representatives and officials to account, and I think it was very, very clear in this case.
15:12.46
Maria McCloskey
and it took a small organisation, a campaign group, a grassroots campaign group together with, um you know, myself, Emma, Kate, Hilary at PILS. Together we hadn’t done this before. um And um that we then engaged pro bono lawyers, Acland Bryant and Mark Willers, KC.
29:55.58
Maria McCloskey
And you know I remember Mark and Acland coming over and us going out with Geraint and looking at the you know looking at the and area. we drove out we said this is where they’re planning about this and you know we we got a real sense of what we were talking about and again I think that that’s hugely important in these types of and legal challenges and campaigns is that you know we were all kind of invested in it you know we were invested in it anyway on behalf of the group and what they’re trying to achieve but then you go out and you see it and you see the beautiful landscape and you see some of the nature that exists there and then it makes you realise why why you’re doing what you’re doing
30:36.27
Maria McCloskey
So, you know, I just think that at the outset and I’m looking in, I maybe would have been afraid to say, yes, we can do this because I’d never done it before. But are you ever going to learn how to do it unless you do it you know, so it’s all those things that feel the fear and do it anyway.
Jen Ang
I went on, in our interview, to ask Maria – what challenges did she face, as a lawyer, in bringing a strategic legal challenge alongside the work of a long-running environmental justice campaign?
11:55.33
Maria
Yeah, so from that perspective, I suppose, it’s always the being clear on what a legal challenge can do. So, you know, obviously, many of these types of organisations like Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal, they’re very much focused on, it says it in their name, they want to stop the redevelopment of this oil terminal.
13:02.78
Maria McCloskey
And i suppose the challenge the challenge within that is… being realistic about what you can do and what is going to come out of this at the end. and So, you know, the the challenge that we brought, which was successful, did not mean the end of that campaign and it has not meant the end of what Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal are trying to do, because what it did, it was stopped a particular process from happening.
13:30.22
Maria McCloskey
But that process can now be restarted. And, you know, these plans to redevelop the oil terminal you know are in the process of being brought forward again addressing the challenge that we brought but also then with their end goal being well we want to redevelop the oil terminal so the challenge always about being real realistic and about being realistic about what you can do being realistic about your prospects of success and also think i think you know when you’re bringing together legal teams and campaigners who are very passionate about the overall issue about protecting our environment you know that the law cannot address that you know one legal challenge can’t address the overarching aim or you know goal of the of the organisation or of
14:19.26
Maria McCloskey
environmental campaigners in general you have to focus in on one thing realise okay well we can stop it this one way but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be stopped and it doesn’t necessarily mean we’re going to achieve the end goal of protecting our environment but I think once everybody you know is fully on the same page about that and still recognises that, yes, this is an important step for us to take as part of the overall um campaign and and and then move forward with that information. I think that that’s really important at the outset. But also, you know, what is it going to cost? What are the risks?
14:55.92
Maria McCloskey
What, you know, are we prepared for those risks? Does that mean any risk to any individual? Does that mean any risk to the organization? You know, so it’s about… pulling all of those things into the conversations at the outset and continuing to have them as things move forward.
15:12.46
Maria McCloskey
But I think that that’s part of the beauty of public interest litigation because, you know, i am public interest at litigation is about sort of advancing the space for others. um You know, that’s kind of the nuts and bolts of it, albeit that you’re doing through different legal challenges.
15:31.16
Maria McCloskey
so yeah i think that that was a challenge but also then once you’ve acknowledged it as challenge and addressed it then you can all move forward um uh from the same perspective. And just one other sort of challenge I think is, um you know, legal literacy in general.
17:02.27
Maria McCloskey
I mean, we talk lawyers and and anybody in the human rights space, we maybe talk kind of freely about judicial reviews, about certain terms that come with the space and it not necessarily being in the vocabulary of the campaigners, the people who are you know who are working on planning applications is not necessarily the lingo that they’re used to And so ah for us, it was very important that we break that down as much as possible and keep the lines of communication open because And our space in working in sort of pro bono allows for that because we can take it very much at a pace that suits whoever we are working with.
17:41.82
Maria McCloskey
It’s more difficult whenever you talk about fee paying clients because you know time is money and all of that. and But I think that that can lead to difficulties in some cases where things are just moving and and you have to go with it. But If everybody in the campaign doesn’t necessarily know what’s happening and why, that can be a challenge. It’s not necessarily. and I just feel that for people to properly buy in to the whole process, it’s better that they know exactly what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. So, again, another challenge that we that we had to overcome.
18:19.77
Jen Ang
Thanks, Maria, for those really thoughtful reflections. I think you’re I think you’re being a wee bit modest about your readiness to take on this case. But also, I certainly recognize myself from practice, the idea that and that legal challenges are sort of novel novel and types of public interest litigation always sits in an area and for anyone that’s just a little bit outside what’s been done before sometimes. And actually, there’s an element of not just assembling your your team and acknowledging the expertise of others, but also just perhaps bravery in um and taking on something new or taking on something different.
21:03.38
Jen Ang
And now turning to the legal case itself, um just to make sure our listeners understand, what was the change in the law that the campaign sought to secure? And what was the significance for for them um in terms of what they were fighting for?
21:19.41
Maria McCloskey
So I suppose that the this sort of public interest litigation case was, you know, it’s one of those cases that’s not necessarily about the change in the law because the law was there, but the law hadn’t been complied with. So it’s about and adherence to the laws that already exist because, you know, as you know yourself, Jen,
21:40.31
Maria McCloskey
it’s ah it’s a huge battle to get a piece of law across the line and then it’s many more battles to ensure that whoever is um required to complies with those laws and so this was really about adherence to the legal principles and commitments and that this particular legal challenge was was looking to address um And again, I suppose that’s maybe going back to the previous question in terms of challenges. and You know, you need a law upon which to bring a challenge. And sometimes that can be a challenge in and of itself.
22:17.75
Maria McCloskey
And you may be you may also have to be selective about what aspects of the case are um ripe for legal challenge and because obviously campaign groups feel very strongly maybe that um if we were to take a ah bird’s eye view of this this doesn’t ah comply with the Paris Agreement or the commitments made at that time but we have to look at the arena in which we’re challenging it in which we have to challenge it in the first instance and what the laws are applicable to um there’s this region and so that’s where I suppose the the legal expertise and the campaign itself have to come together and and be clear about that and be clear about maybe the niche aspect of this particular challenge but that ultimately that will help
23:02.81
Maria McCloskey
address the overall aim of the of the campaign and the organisation. um So I think, and yeah, this this challenge obviously the did help achieve that aim. It it highlighted that um the council involved in this case didn’t comply with its legal obligations effectively and through this legal challenge got the borough council in Mid and East Antrim to admit to their failing in that regard and so you know as a success in one sense but not not in the overall the overall battle I suppose
23:40.85
Jen Ang
Do you think the case had the impact you’d hoped?
24:12.87
Maria McCloskey
What I can say is that the the legal challenge that we brought this time last year was hugely significant um in a number of respects.
24:30.45
Maria McCloskey
um you know, having the council admit in open court that they’ve breached a legal requirement, you know, I think it it’s huge because and that’s what these types of cases really, I mean, when you talk about the judicial review, you’re never going to get money, you’re never going to get them to overturn the decision, but to get the council to admit that was wrong and ultimately the aim is it will comply by its legal obligations on the next time round.
24:55.99
Maria McCloskey
And even though the council didn’t admit to the other breaches that we had raised in the proceedings, you know, they didn’t necessarily have to admit to them because they already admitted to the one breach that meant that the planning application was quashed.
Jen Ang
Maria explained here that the decision to grant planning application on this occasion that the Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal campaigners were challenging was “quashed.” Quashing is one type of remedy or order that a court can be asked to make when you are challenging the lawfulness of a public action. It means that the decision to grant the planning application is nullified or withdrawn, and everyone returns to the position as if the application had never been granted.
25:11.97
Maria McCloskey
But it was hugely important in you know the sense that they know that this organisation is keeping a very close eye on what they’re doing. They know that this organisation has legal support. we They know that this organisation has community and wider support within you know um the whole region.
25:30.45
Maria McCloskey
And so the importance of holding governments and, um you know, public authorities to account using the law, that is what we want to try and achieve because we’re not the lawmakers, but certainly we, you know, and it shouldn’t have to be, I think, I always think it shouldn’t have to be up to small community organisations to make sure that public authorities are doing what they should do. But that’s the world in which we live.
25:58.26
Maria McCloskey
But certainly when you are you know when a public authority knows that kind of you’re on to them then hopefully they will and do everything correctly on the next occasion and I suppose that then what what happens going forward um you know obviously that part of the the case will properly be presented or the planning application will properly be complied with on the next occasion but whether there are other failings maybe some that we addressed that uh keep the the door open for legal challenge.
27:01.40
Jen Ang
if you needed to do this again today, would you would you run the case the same? And do you think the outcome would be the same or different? Or is it just hard to say?
27:26.48
Maria McCloskey
Yeah, I suppose it is hard to say and because, ah you know, a year on, if I was still involved in the case, I would certainly feel much more confident in my knowledge of planning law and all all those sorts of things.
But I think if the case came to us in the same way that it did, last year you know I think we would probably address it in the same way now maybe we’d be slightly more efficient in certain things um but I think that the way that we dealt with that request for legal support was the epitome of what PILS is and what it does for community organisations and there was a real um you know I think a sense of achievement not only for the PILS team and the uh organisation and the pro bono lawyers that were involved but for the wider community and for the wider kind of um climate justice environmental uh
28:27.37
Maria McCloskey
campaign community it was hugely hugely important and hugely motivational and inspirational in a sense because um there was there were other benefits to the success that weren’t just directly related to the case.
29:06.84
Maria McCloskey
I think the consequence of it was um hugely important for other organisations. organisations for other campaigns for other people who are living in their community and potentially facing you know the same or similar types of challenges where there’s an application for planning permission or something’s being done to their local environment um or area in which they live and you always feel this sense of well what can I do and actually I think this this case proved that there’s a whole lot that you can do and you can be hugely impactful
31:48.85
Maria McCloskey
Despite the fact that there’s maybe not the equality of arms, you know, we’re talking about government departments that are, you know, hugely resourced in terms of their legal capacity um and um and all of that versus, well, when there’s where there’s a will, there’s a way kind of thing. So, yeah, I think for me, it was it was just.
32:10.85
Maria McCloskey
such a wonderful and valuable experience for me personally, but more so to be part of it, you know, because when, when you succeed by yourself, that’s one thing, but when you exist succeed because of the impact of, or input of a number of people,
32:26.32
Maria McCloskey
It’s just so heartwarming. And, you know, I attended an event shortly after and the sense in the room was one of positivity, where I think in previous years in these spaces, has very been much been, and I don’t want to say defeatist because there’s so many um you know campaigners organisers people who work tirelessly on these issues but there maybe was a sense of well the legal system’s not going to help us or you know it’s not it’s not worth our time because you know there it’s not going to be successful and this kind of showed them
30:29 .70
Jen Ang
Well, I’m feeling, I am feeling as inspired just listening, but I also, I can sort of hear in your reflection, and it’s, again, it’s interesting for me, from my perspective as a kind of a peer practitioner. um It sounds very much like and you and your the team at PILS as well felt that you gained so much from being a part of this experience, you know, as much as you contributed your skills, I can just sort of, I can see the smile on your face, I can hear it in your voice.
33:47.79
Jen Ang
and This reflection that in some ways it sounds like you were, you felt lucky to be able to if be a part of this piece of work.
33:55.70
Jen Ang
So standing back, this is sort of my final big question, and then we’ll move to a closing question. But standing back, For you, what more needs to be done to secure justice in this space?
34:59.22
Maria McCloskey
Yeah, it’s a great question and I think it’s it’s a number of strands of things need to happen. I mean, from… The perspective of say PILS and other you know organisations or firms, even of lawyers who are trying to work on these issues, I think it has to be properly financed and resourced.
35:20.14
Maria McCloskey
I mean, can’t continue to rely on pro bono um legal expertise to fight these cases or to support these cases being brought before the courts. There has to be access to the arenas and there has to be an element of equality of arms in that.
35:37.08
Maria McCloskey
So, you know, I would like to see more investment in legal challenges of this nature, be that through government funding um or ah probably an and through community or sorry, foundations and charitable donors providing the support for these types of cases to be taken forward because, you know, the amount of time involved in preparing a case like this which actually didn’t go to a full judicial review hearing um you know it was it was huge and I probably didn’t have a full appreciation of myself but I certainly think many people don’t have a full appreciation of the fact that it’s the time um and you know
36:27.54
Maria McCloskey
the expertise required to go into it. So I think it’s unfair to expect that organisations take this without being financially supported. mentioned earlier,
36:40.91
Maria McCloskey
this is about making sure that public authorities abide by their obligations and their legal responsibilities. You nearly shouldn’t have to be doing it, but you know, the world we live in, we do have to do it.
36:52.77
Maria McCloskey
And so that being the case, I think that there should be an aspect of investment in making sure that institutions and um public authorities are are held accountable.
37:05.41
Maria McCloskey
So, I think also just that equality of arms, which comes from, you know, having the resources and having the the finances to be able to challenge equally, I think is hugely important.
37:57.70
Maria McCloskey
Because you know this all happens in complex legislation and these and requirements go into very, very dense pieces of legislation, which sometimes are very difficult to break down for lawyers, speaking personally again, nevermind for people who are trying to navigate this.
38:14.41
Maria McCloskey
in the context of an issue that has arisen in their community so there’s like access to justice doesn’t just mean having money to go to court it means understanding the legal obligations that exist um and so you know how can you hold someone to account if you don’t understand what the what they you know where they’re supposed to be in carrying out their duties um so I think sort of investment in education pieces around that is also t to making the system work more effectively in the future.
39:04.16
Jen Ang
So I have one final question and it is this. So um throughout this podcast series, there will be people out there listening who are perhaps and activists already or thinking about the law. Um And they might be looking at what you’ve accomplished today and and and who you are now, and they might even want to be you. So my question for you is, do you have some advice for a younger version of you or maybe just someone who is curious about, you know, keen to m forge a career like yours and that you would share with our listeners now?
39:39.04
Maria McCloskey
yeah sure I mean to think that somebody would want to be like me it’s very it’s funny for us and um in this part of the world where we think no no no I haven’t achieved very much or um You know, I still feel in one sense that I have so much more you know, there’s so much more I have to learn um to feel very comfortable. But then I’ve also got to the point in my career where maybe you never feel really, really comfortable, but you just accept that.
40:07.83
Maria McCloskey
work with the the knowledge that you have in this point in time and never be afraid to admit that you don’t know something. I mean, this was a key. um This was a prime example of that. When the group came, we had discussions in the office and I don’t know where whether um the members Stop Whitehead Oil Terminal know this, but it was like, oh, can we do this? Oh, I don’t know.
40:30.84
Maria McCloskey
And me probably mostly saying, you know And it was just because my name as the solicitor would go on the papers, not that it was I thought it was all down to me, because it certainly was a team effort and the vast majority of the real hard work was done by others, including Hilary and Kate and Emma.
40:47.45
Maria McCloskey
But actually having those conversations, I’m not being afraid to say, I’m not sure, and I feel a bit shaky here, and others around you actually supporting you.So yeah, I think just and not being afraid to say you’re not sure and then having those discussions with others because they can remind you Well, yes, you can do it.
41:36.36
Maria McCloskey
You’re a qualified lawyer. And um you know first of all, you’re you’re allowed to do it. You’re allowed to kind of learn about it. You don’t have to know everything at the outset. And also, it doesn’t just depend on you doing all the work.
41:47.49
Maria McCloskey
And that was very, very obvious in this case, because Emma, Hillary and Kate, they I mean talk about a team effort. It really was everybody kind of coming together and taking the burden on, the burden being you know the huge responsibility of getting this right um so I think that um you know inspiring get being inspired by others around me and then giving me the confidence was hugely important in this particular case and so what I would say to aspiring lawyers or aspiring you know people who want to go further in their career I recall when I talked about moving into the human rights and sector that you know a lot of people I spoke to said, well, yeah, that’s very interesting, but you you know you won’t get a job in that space.
42:37.85
Maria McCloskey
And um you know I just kept working on the issues that were important to me and that I was interested in researching, you know going to events, being in the spaces and letting this you know i’m huge amount of knowledge just keep penetrating and then eventually feeling well actually I do know something now that in itself gives me the confidence to say well I’ll maybe look into this issue on behalf of someone I’ll maybe just take on this one query and that just builds and builds over time and so you know it’s hard work but it’s a lifetime’s work I don’t ever think that there’s a final destination and you get there and you go ah what I’m doing in this human rights space I mean you know Jen as well it’s so vast It actually keeps changing on a daily basis. You know that you have to keep yourself up to speed with the changes.
43:28.16
Maria McCloskey
But if you’re committed to it, if you’re passionate about it, it definitely and you will get there. And I think the world kind of opens up opportunities to you when you’re in the right headspace, when you’re in the right space.
43:43.12
Maria McCloskey
place and you know you go to the right things you speak to the right people people that know a bit more than you um or a lot more than you um and you know I suppose just being humble that I’ve now come to accept that I don’t always get it right and sometimes I’m not really sure what I’m doing but if you have others around you who are supporting you um then that that’s really what you need
44:08.23
Jen Ang
Oh, thank you. Thank you for that. and Wise and warm. And I would also say strangely reassuring advice.
44:15.30
Maria McCloskey
[Laughs]
44:15.95
Jen Ang
feel like I feel like, Maria, if I ever sort of have some doubt in my career, the stage that I’ve reached, I’m just going to need to ring you up and ask you to tell me that again. Because, I mean, I think what you said really rings true. I um I see that I see that humility, but also that really strong sense of um mutual support and solidarity in the PILS team. And I I also recognize that in other, you know, legal teams and campaigns that I’ve been a part of.
45:17.97
Maria McCloskey
And I think just one final point that you kind of have sparked, um you know, that reminds me to to make clear in any avenue or in any channel that I can, like this space needs all the help it can get. U m If you are thinking about a career in human rights, please pursue that interest and don’t give up on it because the the corporate and commercial world, I feel, is growing.
45:46.31
Maria McCloskey
whilst the human rights space is sort of under pressure at the moment. and There are many critical issues happening both at home and further afield that we really need kind of all hands on deck um with at the moment so it may not be the most financially rewarding but it’s certainly the most personally rewarding um from my experience and I can highly recommend it um to anyone who’s thinking about it as a career.
46:16.32
Jen Ang
Yeah, 100%. um Thank you so much for your time, Maria. and um As I said, I could I could speak to you all afternoon, and but I won’t take any more of your hospitality or your time today.
46:35.84
Maria McCloskey
Thank you very much, Jen. It was great to chat to you.
Jen Ang
I caught up with the PILS team this week, for a follow up on this case, and they told me that SWOT and PILS are still working together closely. They explained:
Mid and East Antrim Borough Council’s planning committee now need to make a fresh decision on whether or not this fossil fuel infrastructure should be given planning permission.
In SWOT’s own words: “We got a stay of execution – but we still need to stop the development. A revised application for this unnecessary and unwanted fossil fuel infrastructure is now with the Council.”
SWOT are asking local communities and supporters to take action, speak to their local elected represntatives and lodge an objection. They’ve got a handy template letter on their website: stopwhiteheadoilterminal.org
Since SWOT went to court, it’s clear from the updated environmental information submitted to the Council by the developer that this proposed fossil fuel infrastructure would have a massive impact on emissions and the region’s ability to meet any emissions targets. We are all waiting to see how the Council responds. This is definitely one to watch!
Thanks so much to you the listener, for tuning into the Lawmanity podcast.
In our next episode, we’ll doing something a little bit different – we’ll be kicking off a series of three themed episodes bringing together individual conversations we’ve had with 11 incredible Scottish activist leaders, to ask them to reflect on the connection between law and real social change. We asked them whether the law treats them and their communities equally, about whether the think the law is a tool, or a barrier to change, and what justice looks like to them. Their answers are frank, honest and – pure dynamite. Tune in in two weeks’ time, if you want to hear what they had to say!
if you loved this podcast, please do hit the subscribe button and also like and share our episodes with friends and colleagues who might enjoy learning a little bit about how the law really works in practice, and how it can be used to make the world a better brighter place.
Our podcast has been generously supported by a grant from the Clark Foundation for Legal Education. The Lawmanity podcast is co-produced by me, your host Jen Ang, and by the brilliant and talented Natalia Uribe, and the music you’ve been listening to is “Always on the Move” by Musicians in Exile, a Glasgow-based music project led by people seeking refuge in Scotland.
